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Message |
| Common
Ground / Out Back / I
have a few major life and death questions |
Karma
Cast Member
Posts: 344
Registered: Dec 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
09:28 AM
Does anyone
here work with hospice or with death and dying on
a regular basis?
If so would you be willing to PM me? I have a few things
I need some feedback about....
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Peace to all ducks
Don't forget to read my Poop Report...er...I mean my Trip
Report
I poke ducks.
Ducks LIKE to be poked.
I am an expert duck poker. |
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michelle
Cast Member
Posts: 2
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
01:09 PM
I sent you
a PM, but I'm not really sure how that works so I
thought I would post here also. I have been a Hospice
Nurse for three years. Ask away...
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Mary
Cast Member
Posts: 465
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
01:16 PM
Excuse me for
butting in here but I wanted to say THANK YOU Michelle
and all other hospice nurses and doctors. The level
of comfort and care you provide to patients and families
is incredible. I can not imagine what the death of
loved ones would be without you.
Mary
First Mate, Good Ship Stickey Mickey and Keeper of the
Ships Log |
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Karma
Cast Member
Posts: 344
Registered: Dec 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
01:55 PM
ditto ditto
DITTO 100000000 times what Mary said!
Michelle, I've sent you a PM...and maybe I should ask my
question in public. Maybe it will help someone else who
may happen upon this thread at some point.
My main question for today is...
if a loved one gets sent home after the doctors have run
out of options to save a life..
what is the proper proceedure at the time of the patients
death?
Obviously 911 is there to aid in CPR and to offer life
saving techniques...but that isn't what we'd want.
So who do we call?
And thankyou to those who've already answered my questions
privately.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Peace to all ducks
Don't forget to read my Poop Report...er...I mean my Trip
Report
I poke ducks.
Ducks LIKE to be poked.
I am an expert duck poker. |
|
Mary
Cast Member
Posts: 465
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
02:36 PM
Karma,
Last year when we went through this with my mother it went
kind of like this:
When hospice determined it was time for 24 hour care my
two siblings charged with funeral arrangements took a morning
off from the vigil and went to the funeral home. The funeral
director gave them a card with a 24-hour phone line listed.
Late one evening the nurse suggested we call the other
siblings and ask if they wanted to come for the end as
she felt it would be before the night ended. This wonderful
nurse spent the evening calling us in individually to 'chat'
and very subtly explained the things we would be seeing
over the next few hours and helping us say our good-byes.
It was 11:45 on a Saturday night when she called us all
in and suggested we say some prayers to soothe Mom. She
very discreetly left the room. The 4 of us who decided
to stay with Mom talked quietly amongst ourselves. My sister
was rubbing Mom's shoulder, I was rubbing her feet (she
always loved this) and my two brothers were each holding
her hand. It was about midnight when Mom passed. We shared
a quiet moment together and then my brother went to get
the nurse. She pronounced her and called the funeral home.
We each had tasks; cleaning up, packing her clothes and
sitting with Mom until the funeral director arrived and
took Mom. All this time, the hospice nurse was simply there
to touch a hand or shoulder as the necessary calls were
made. She had put on a fresh pot of coffee while we sat
those last few minutes and even moved cars out of the drive
so the funeral coach could get right to the door. She was
wonderful, as was each hospice nurse who spent time with
us those last few weeks.
The important point here is NOT to call 911. I believe
this varies by state but in Illinois, hospice can pronounce
the patient and the funeral home can be called directly.
Without hospice, one must call 911 and the patient is transported
to a hospital to be pronounced. This is unnecessary and
really much too hard to deal with emotionally.
In my opinion, there is no one more compassionate than
a hospice nurse. I realize everyone is different but my
experiences with them have been very calming and reassuring
and a comfort to everyone involved.
Mary
First Mate, Good Ship Stickey Mickey and Keeper of the
Ships Log |
|
Karma
Cast Member
Posts: 344
Registered: Dec 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
03:20 PM
Right now,
we're still dealing with dad coming to grips with
having been told by his doctors that there was simply
nothing more they could do for him. I believe my
father will stay in denial for some time.
My sisters are also a problem because they won't be able
to accept this. They both have difficulties making decisions
and dealing with stuff like this.
Don't know how to help them either and I know we must walk
down our own paths...but gosh, it's hard to hear them talk
about how "mean" we (mom and I) are if we even discuss
options like hospice and nursing home/24 hour care for
dad.
I think this is the time to support my mother and not doubt
her choices in all of this.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Peace to all ducks
Don't forget to read my Poop Report...er...I mean my Trip
Report
I poke ducks.
Ducks LIKE to be poked.
I am an expert duck poker. |
|
TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
03:30 PM
quote:
Karma wrote:
ditto ditto DITTO 100000000 times what Mary said!
Michelle, I've sent you a PM...and maybe I should ask
my question in public. Maybe it will help someone else
who may happen upon this thread at some point.
My main question for today is...
if a loved one gets sent home after the doctors have
run out of options to save a life..
what is the proper proceedure at the time of the patients
death?
Obviously 911 is there to aid in CPR and to offer life
saving techniques...but that isn't what we'd want.
So who do we call?
And thankyou to those who've already answered my questions
privately.
I may not help much but {{{{Karma}}}} I'm here and we could
share a laugh or two over the silly things that your family
did together in happier times. {{{Karma}}}
Janie
The Curb Kicker |
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Mary
Cast Member
Posts: 465
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
04:04 PM
quote:
Karma wrote:
My sisters are also a problem because they won't be able
to accept this. They both have difficulties making decisions
and dealing with stuff like this.
Karma, they have to work through this on their own. Hospice
can help with that also. Heck, they brought a social worker
in twice for us: once to diffuse a squabble that was agitating
the patient. Second time was to help those in denial understand
that Mom was really dying.
quote:
I think this is the time to support my mother and not
doubt her choices in all of this.
This is absolutely what needs to happen. In our case, we
had to argue with a doctor who would not admit that chemo
was failing miserably. The two siblings who disagreed would
not admit at any time that this was serious. One of them
did not come the last night because 'you guys are nuts,
Mom is not dying' I kid you not. They may never accept
it. Do what needs to be done, and stand tall next to your
mother.
Your mom is the only one who can make the decision. As
long as you support her, that is all that counts.
{{{{Karma}}}}
Pixie dust and prayers to your family.
Mary
First Mate, Good Ship Stickey Mickey and Keeper of the
Ships Log |
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Robin
Cast Member
Posts: 939
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
04:12 PM
I agree the
rules probably vary from state to state, and their
are probably options you are unaware of.
My Mother died a few years ago at home, from kidney failure.
She was on peritoneal dialysis, so initially she was able
to do her own treatments. Eventually her legs gave out
on her, and after a short stay in the hospital she was
allowed to come home. An aid who was there during the day
assisted her with her meals, bathing and some basic cleaning
tasks around the house. We had visiting nurses coming by
4 times a day to check on her condition and handle her
dialysis treatments.
When we knew the end was coming soon, my sister flew in
from Israel with her kids to be with her. My sister (daft
as she can be at times) spoke to Mom's primary care physician
who agreed to sign Mom's death certificate when the time
came. (We were in NYC, and I don't know if all states all
this.) She also had a DNR (a do not resuscitate order)
prepared.
Stepping back in time a moment. Years before Mom made me
her health care proxy. This legally gave me the rights
to make any decisions necessary, if she was no longer capable.
Since my brother and sister are Orthodox Jews, and my Dad
'refuses' to make the tough decisions, she knew I would
honor her wishes, even if they conflicted with Jewish law.
I don't know if my family was aware, but if it had become
necessary I would have followed my Mothers wishes as her
official 'plug puller'.
That last night by some 'instinct' by sister in law insisted
they drive over from NJ to see my Mom. My aunt came with
them (Mom's older sister) And then with just us three kids
in the room, my brother who had many conflicts with my
Mom over the years, lead a 'thank you' to Mom, for every
she's done for us. A tough momemt even now to remember,
but at least at the end they truly made peace.
I spent the night, checking in on my Mother periodically
who seemed to be sleeping quietly (she had been in so much
pain, I didn't want to risk waking her by staying in the
room.) The next morning my sister and I checked on Mom,
and realized she'd had a stroke sometime during the night.
After my nieces came into the room and said goodbye, my
Dad drove them to day camp. My sister and I spoke with
Mom, and I believe she was able to hear us, as I noticed
her lips were pressed together, and expression she used
when trying to supress emotion. We told her it was time
to let go, and it was ok to do this. When my sister left
the room I snuck the health care proxy out of Mom's purse,
and told her I would honor her wishes. I'd give her a few
days to do this on her own, but that if she couldn't I'd
stop her dialysis. (Which my sister had already stated
was against religious law, hence the 'sneaking'.)
My sister came back, kissed my Mother and told her it was
ok to go, to be with those who were already gone. Then
Lanie and I began to 'argue' wheither or not to leave the
siderail on the bed up. Mom 'sighed' and she was gone.
I joked later that she must have though, 'here they go
again' and decided to not to put up with another moment
of bickering kids.
Dad got home after Mom was gone. I believe she purposed
waited until the kids weren't there.
Lanie called the visiting nurse agency to tell them. One
nurse, a very sweet woman who lived nearby rushed over
as soon as the agency informed her of Mom's passing.
Lanie waited about an hour after Mom was gone to call 911,
informed them of the DNR, and stated we just needed someone
to pronounce her.
Oy...Mom would have hated the commotion, that insued. First
we here a siren and see a nice huge red firetruck pull
up. Then came the fire station supervisor (who didn't stay
long). Then call a police car. FINALLY, two EMS ambulances
show. Mind you, Mom hated people making a fuss over her
and having everyone know her business. Oh well.
Seems once emergency services show, they have to stay and
file a report. Sigh. Lanie interviewed with the fire department,
while I spoke with the police. The police needed to comfirm
with Mom's doctor that he would issue the death certificate,
then get the Medical Examiner's office to release the body.
Once the Medical Examiner gave the police the OK, everyone
left and we able to call the funeral chapel to pick her
up. (For the life of me, I don't remember where Dad was
during all this.) It probably took less time that it seemed
like at the time.
After Mom was taken away, we headed over to the funeral
chapel to make the arrangements for the funeral the next
day. Everything was done and we were back home in plenty
of time to pick up the kids from camp. After that the only
thing left to do was notify family.
Sorry this got so long. Seems once I start to tell part
of the story, the whole thing just pours out.
I toss my cookies for Disney.
I wonder what inspired this new Disney T-shirt? "I'm right.
You're wrong. Any Questions?" |
|
fantayzya
Cast Member
Posts: 586
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
04:12 PM
Hello Karma,
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family at
what must be a horribly difficult time for all of you.
While denial is very normal, and to be expected in most
cases, you're right too. There are things that must be
considered.
I'm a person who generally stays calm in the midst of the
crisis and handles things dealing on my own with others
impression I'm cold and heartless, and then falls apart
later when it's all over and then everyone else then thinks
I'm nuts and wonders what my problem is.
Over the past few years we've suffered several losses of
dear ones and no matter how I look at it, I can't imagine
that it's better in cases where these things were ignored
and it was required to face them at the time. You remove
many of your choices by doing this IMO. Add in that you
are very likely to be in a less than optimum emotional
state and you have a recipe for trouble.
Unfortunately, as I said, not everyone is good at dealing
with these types of situation, some simple can't do it
for whatever reason. You stand by your mom regardless.
Do whatever you feel you can to assist and believe me your
mom, your dad, and most likely everyone else involved too
will be greatful you did, regardless of how it seems now.
Plus, and more importantly, you will have the pleasure
and honor of knowing when you look in the mirror that you
did what you had to do.
Hugs,
Lori
"One small drop of water raises the sea" Marian
in Dinotopia
"One who grows does not grow old"-Texas Bix Bender, writer
"Look Mommy," he whispered. "The butterflies are dancing!" At that moment, inside
my soul somewhere, all the tumblers fell into place."-Kathy Storfer, "A Dig in
the Dirt," Green Prints Spring 1997
Visit WDW with my son Nate and I at Fantayzya
and Nate See the World |
|
Robin
Cast Member
Posts: 939
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
04:36 PM
quote:
fantayzya wrote:
I'm a person who generally stays calm in the midst of
the crisis and handles things dealing on my own with
others impression I'm cold and heartless, and then falls
apart later when it's all over and then everyone else
then thinks I'm nuts and wonders what my problem is.
Been there. You go on 'autopilot', it's hard to explain.
I was actually calmer than my sister when Mom first passed.
That first 'wave' of emotion really hit me the next morning,
as I realized I was dressing for my Mom's funeral. After
that...it's more ebb and tide.
quote:
Over the past few years we've suffered several losses
of dear ones and no matter how I look at it, I can't
imagine that it's better in cases where these things
were ignored and it was required to face them at the
time. You remove many of your choices by doing this IMO.
Add in that you are very likely to be in a less than
optimum emotional state and you have a recipe for trouble.
Agreed. If you can speak with you Mother now. Find out
exactly what her wishes are. I remember the strangeness
of discussing about 'forced feeding' with her, so I understand
exactly what she wanted. Volunteer to be her health care
proxy is you feel up to it. While I never had to use the
document, I knew could legally insist on Mom's wishes being
carried out if I came down to it.
I did have a bit of an 'open casket' dispute with my sister,
which she compromised on after I threatened to make a 'scene'
at the funeral.  I
would have done it too. (Mom would have been on my side.)
[Edited by Robin]
I toss my cookies for Disney.
I wonder what inspired this new Disney T-shirt? "I'm right.
You're wrong. Any Questions?" |
|
Karma
Cast Member
Posts: 344
Registered: Dec 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
06:24 PM
Your thoughts
are all so personal and I thank you from the bottom
of my heart for sharing them.
So so so SO many of my feelings have been written by YOU
guys just now, and it's a HUGE relief to see that just
because right NOW and when I'm right in the midst of it,
I'm calm..that I'm NOT abnormal...LOL well, you know. I'm
sure I will fall apart later but right now, I want to make
sure that mom knows that whatEVER decision she might have
to make for dad, I WILL stand behind her and I will NOT
give her more grief than she needs.
Oh, I just can't write more now, but thankyou again for
sharing these stories.
Personally, I just feel better knowing that we're doing
what the DYING person wants, not what WE want. It IS THEIR
life and death we're talking about....and those final choices
should be theirs.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Peace to all ducks
Don't forget to read my Poop Report...er...I mean my Trip
Report
I poke ducks.
Ducks LIKE to be poked.
I am an expert duck poker. |
|
Francine
Super Moderator
Posts: 1309
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
06:33 PM
You know Karma,
that is really what it is about, carrying out the
wishes of the person who is passing.
I was the one that it fell upon to make my father's arrangements.
I did so in the week before he passed. They were not exactly
as I might have hoped, and Dad and I had discussed them
at length through the years just prior to his death. He
knew I would respect him, and I did, to the exact everything
that he wanted.
He passed in my arms, in Jan. 1, 1991. It was very peaceful,
and I felt very good about how I handled it. He was comatose,
but yet when I said "I love you." into his ear, after the
tubes were removed (he was on life support at the time),
his mouth moved. I know he heard me. He was gone within
two minutes.
I know that the way I handled his passing, and his final
arrangments helps me to this day to feel good about how
things went.
You Dad will always be with you, Karma, always. Trust me
on that.
{{{Karma}}}
Francine
Come and visit my other home on the internet Our
Laughing Place |
|
Mary
Cast Member
Posts: 465
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
06:39 PM
quote:
Karma wrote:
Personally, I just feel better knowing that we're doing
what the DYING person wants, not what WE want. It IS
THEIR life and death we're talking about....and those
final choices should be theirs.
Amen.
Mary
First Mate, Good Ship Stickey Mickey and Keeper of the
Ships Log |
|
Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
06:50 PM
Karma, I'm
very sorry to hear what is going on and wish you
strength.
Both of my parents have passed away and neither one was
an easy time for the family and decisions. I wish all of
your family well.
|
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Tink
*~*~*
Cast Member
Posts: 1066
Registered: Aug 2002
|
Posted 02-08-03
06:57 PM
Robin, thanks
for sharing your experience of the day your mom died.
You guys just made me go back and read the epic I'd
written about my own Dad's death back in August.
Karma, you and your family will be going into the prayer
bowl tonight.
Tink *~*~* |
|
| Common
Ground / Out Back / I
have a few major life and death questions |
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