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Common
Ground / Out Back
/ War?
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 03:22 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
I'm very glad Captain weighed in on this because I'm going to be one of the first people who say "You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs". I am VERY aware that American servicemen and women will be killed by the thousands in this war, just as I'm going to be taking alot of flak when I post on BB's that deaths are common in war.
quote:
Crank wrote:
Sorry, there's no "nice" way to say this. Utter bullshit.
quote:
Crank wrote:
Do you know something we don't?
Maybe I do, maybe I don't. But here's some food for thought:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/06/sp...iers/index.html
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Mary
Cast Member
Posts: 465
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 03:41 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
[/color] [/color] [/color]
Maybe I do, maybe I don't. But here's some food for thought:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/06/sp...iers/index.html
Damn, the thought of this war just keeps getting uglier.
Mary
First Mate, Good Ship Stickey Mickey and Keeper of the Ships Log
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 03:47 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
[/color] [/color] [/color]
Maybe I do, maybe I don't. But here's some food for thought:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/06/sp...iers/index.html
I agree there's nothing pretty about war.
However, this shouldn't come to pass if Saddam really isn't stockpiling WMDs should it?
I believe the Coalition has weapons that will destroy the chem/bio weapons stored in bunkers. I highly doubt they would intentionally put personnel in (this) harms way.
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 03:56 PM
quote:
Crank wrote:
I believe the Coalition has weapons that will destroy the chem/bio weapons stored in bunkers. I highly doubt they would intentionally put personnel in (this) harms way.
If they could blow them in place, that would be absolutely wonderful.
Wasn't it in the movie "The Rock" that someone talked of having a heat source hotter than Napalm? I know that was Hollywood, but I wouldn't put it past our government to actually have a heat source like this.
If they could find those weapons (and I don't believe I ever said I didn't think he had them. I just said I need to see solid, unrefutable PROOF that he has them) and destroy them so that NO ONE was hurt, I'd be extremely happy.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 04:19 PM
CNN ran the same story prior to Desert Storm, and another that showed thousands of body bags being shipped out.
For some reason, the love to portray the worst case scenario.
In the '91 war, we fought a much larger and better equipped Iraqi Army, and an Iraqi Air Force that is virtually non-existant today. Our casualties from accidents and 'friendly fire' incidents exceeded our combat deaths.
As far as I'm concerned, the death or maiming of any of our troops is one too many. But I think that our casualties won't be in the thousands or remotely close.
I'd also guess that we'd pound them sensless from the air for quite some time prior to any ground assault, starting with Saddams palaces.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 04:56 PM
quote:
Ajax wrote:
CNN ran the same story prior to Desert Storm, and another that showed thousands of body bags being shipped out.
For some reason, the love to portray the worst case scenario.
In the '91 war, we fought a much larger and better equipped Iraqi Army, and an Iraqi Air Force that is virtually non-existant today. Our casualties from accidents and 'friendly fire' incidents exceeded our combat deaths.
As far as I'm concerned, the death or maiming of any of our troops is one too many. But I think that our casualties won't be in the thousands or remotely close.
I'd also guess that we'd pound them sensless from the air for quite some time prior to any ground assault, starting with Saddams palaces.
And that was with what? Two carriers? One airbase in Riyadh? Now there's (I think) seven carriers and Turkey and Pakistan add airbases.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'll check...
ETA: Six Carrier Battle groups and five Airbases...plus a whole bunch of UAV's.
[Edited by Crank]
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 05:49 PM
Hey Crank-
I think we had five carriers, two in the Gulf and three in the Red Sea. Plus we flew land based aircraft out of two bases in Saudi Arabia, one in Turkey, the island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, and Lousiana(!)
Also, the Brits flew out of Baharain(sic).
As far as I know, the air forces will be flying out of those same bases.
We've maintained a standing force in Saudi for quite some time, so a lot of the air assets are in place.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 05:58 PM
quote:
Ajax wrote:
Hey Crank-
I think we had five carriers, two in the Gulf and three in the Red Sea. Plus we flew land based aircraft out of two bases in Saudi Arabia, one in Turkey, the island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean, and Lousiana(!)
Also, the Brits flew out of Baharain(sic).
As far as I know, the air forces will be flying out of those same bases.
We've maintained a standing force in Saudi for quite some time, so a lot of the air assets are in place.
Thanks for clarifying, Ajax. Boy howdy, it doesn't seem that long ago does it?
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Coastalwader
Cast Member
Posts: 935
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 08:05 PM
Well, that was a fun read!
First Captain, you da man.
I've already stated my opinion about why we need to go in so I won't go back there.
As far as how long and drawn out and bloody this battle will be, I don't think we have seen anything yet that leads us to believe it will be that much different than the previous war. The Iraqi's troops will still be surrenduring right and left. Troops under forced rule always do. I don't think we will see massive losses of Allied troops, I think he'll try to launch everything he can and take out a bunch of civilians. Not to say it won't suck any less because it won't, but as long as we are discussing what we think will happen, that's my guess.
The problem is the same one we faced before. Getting Saddam himself. One of the reasons we didn't do the job right the first time was because of potential loss of life.
Anything could happen. If he is taken out in the first week, and it is possible, it's over. The people aren't going to fight very long for this guy.
My only reservation is the outside issues. China going into Taiwan being my biggest concern. At this point I'm not concerned with North Korea only beacause this is basically how every negotiation we've ever had with them has gone. Lots of saber rattling until the deal is done and I believe we can make a deal. I really hope I'm right on that one.
King Unca Bubba Lord DisneyTex
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tomato
Cast Member
Posts: 14
Registered: Dec 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 08:08 PM
quote:
Coastalwader wrote:
Well, that was a fun read!
First Captain, you da man.
I've already stated my opinion about why we need to go in so I won't go back there.
As far as how long and drawn out and bloody this battle will be, I don't think we have seen anything yet that leads us to believe it will be that much different than the previous war. The Iraqi's troops will still be surrenduring right and left. Troops under forced rule always do. I don't think we will see massive losses of Allied troops, I think he'll try to launch everything he can and take out a bunch of civilians. Not to say it won't suck any less because it won't, but as long as we are discussing what we think will happen, that's my guess.
The problem is the same one we faced before. Getting Saddam himself. One of the reasons we didn't do the job right the first time was because of potential loss of life.
Anything could happen. If he is taken out in the first week, and it is possible, it's over. The people aren't going to fight very long for this guy.
My only reservation is the outside issues. China going into Taiwan being my biggest concern. At this point I'm not concerned with North Korea only beacause this is basically how every negotiation we've ever had with them has gone. Lots of saber rattling until the deal is done and I believe we can make a deal. I really hope I'm right on that one.
Kinda makes you wonder if China is "in play" behind North Korea.
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Robin
Cast Member
Posts: 939
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 08:29 PM
quote:
Crank wrote:
I agree there's nothing pretty about war.
However, this shouldn't come to pass if Saddam really isn't stockpiling WMDs should it?
I believe the Coalition has weapons that will destroy the chem/bio weapons stored in bunkers. I highly doubt they would intentionally put personnel in (this) harms way.
I think the point is they are trying to be prepared for any eventuality. And there are some possibilites that are down right ugly.
Know what my Dad volunteered for in WWII? Human guinea pig. They would have them run across a field and time them. Spray them with nerve gas and see how fast they ran this time. Dad's a wacky guy, and this was his choice on how to best serve his country.
Guess it's explain that third eye my siblings and I have.
I toss my cookies for Disney.
I wonder what inspired this new Disney T-shirt? "I'm right. You're wrong. Any Questions?"
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 08:55 PM
quote:
Robin wrote:
I think the point is they are trying to be prepared for any eventuality. And there are some possibilites that are down right ugly.
Know what my Dad volunteered for in WWII? Human guinea pig. They would have them run across a field and time them. Spray them with nerve gas and see how fast they ran this time. Dad's a wacky guy, and this was his choice on how to best serve his country.
Guess it's explain that third eye my siblings and I have.
You can type real fast with three hands...
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Robin
Cast Member
Posts: 939
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 10:01 PM
quote:
Crank wrote:
You can type real fast with three hands...
Only my brother has the third hand. At least that's what Mommy told me it was.
I toss my cookies for Disney.
I wonder what inspired this new Disney T-shirt? "I'm right. You're wrong. Any Questions?"
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VanBrujah
Cast Member
Posts: 421
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 10:52 PM
quote:
Captain wrote:
You who say that the United States is the greatest offender of Human Rights, I offer in retort Germany, 1939; “the final answer to the Jewish Question”. Over 6 million people died in the name of ethnic cleansing.
Unfortunately, I cannot remember the name of the ship, but let us remember that in the late 30's the U.S. TURNED AWAY a ship full of Jewish refugees - sent them back to Europe, back to Hitler, and to their deaths. Apparently they didn't control any oil, or have rich friends in the U.S.
I am proud to be an American, but I am not always proud of my countries history. We may not be the world's greatest offender of human rights, but when other nations leaders begin to violate the human rights of their citizens, if they are brown, yellow, black, tan, cream color, anything except WHITE, and unless they have some resource that we need, the United States seldom gives a shit.
Like George Carlin said, "You got some brown people? We can bomb the shit out if them! That's our hobby - bombing brown people!"
VB
I wouldn't F*@k RiRi with KUH'S Di@k!
and now, name that quote:
"What the F*@k?
You mean you found out I did it?
You can't post that!
I'M TELLING!!"
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 11:33 PM
quote:
Robin wrote:
Guess it's explain that third eye my siblings and I have.
THREE EYES! THREE EYES! NYAH! NYAH! NYAH!
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Robin
Cast Member
Posts: 939
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 11:40 PM
quote:
VanBrujah wrote:
Unfortunately, I cannot remember the name of the ship, but let us remember that in the late 30's the U.S. TURNED AWAY a ship full of Jewish refugees - sent them back to Europe, back to Hitler, and to their deaths. Apparently they didn't control any oil, or have rich friends in the U.S.
I am proud to be an American, but I am not always proud of my countries history. We may not be the world's greatest offender of human rights, but when other nations leaders begin to violate the human rights of their citizens, if they are brown, yellow, black, tan, cream color, anything except WHITE, and unless they have some resource that we need, the United States seldom gives a shit.
Like George Carlin said, "You got some brown people? We can bomb the shit out if them! That's our hobby - bombing brown people!"
VB
You're referring to the St. Louis, and the incident is known as the Voyage of the damned. http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/27.../Article-5.html
There are also many who say the US should have gotten involved in the war earlier. Had the US bombed the railroads in Germany and Poland early on, who knows how many would have been saved. At least they wouldn't have been able to transport people to the concentration camps in cattle cars.
These were cases of the US waiting too long to help. Now some say we are getting involved too soon.
Here's another good article summarizing the US and other countried involvement in WWI & II. http://www.usatoday.com/2000/century/news/001.htm
The moral I get from this article is that when you ignore what is going on in someone else's backyard, don't be surprised when you suddenly find it in your own.
We're made mistakes in the past, but question is have we learned from them?
I toss my cookies for Disney.
I wonder what inspired this new Disney T-shirt? "I'm right. You're wrong. Any Questions?"
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 12:45 PM
quote:
Robin wrote:
You're referring to the St. Louis, and the incident is known as the Voyage of the damned. http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/27.../Article-5.html
There are also many who say the US should have gotten involved in the war earlier. Had the US bombed the railroads in Germany and Poland early on, who knows how many would have been saved. At least they wouldn't have been able to transport people to the concentration camps in cattle cars.
These were cases of the US waiting too long to help. Now some say we are getting involved too soon.
Here's another good article summarizing the US and other countried involvement in WWI & II. http://www.usatoday.com/2000/century/news/001.htm
The moral I get from this article is that when you ignore what is going on in someone else's backyard, don't be surprised when you suddenly find it in your own.
We're made mistakes in the past, but question is have we learned from them?
Many arguments are "have your cake and eat it too". "We want to be protected but we don't want war." "We want to feel secure but this airport thing is outrageous."
Can it be both ways?
No, the United States is not perfect, far from it.
To where do y'all think we should move?
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 01:36 PM
Crank wrote-
quote:
To where do y'all think we should move?
How about the pub at the Rose & Crown? The last time I was in there, it looked as if they didn't give a damn about anything!
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 01:56 PM
quote:
Ajax wrote:
Crank wrote-
How about the pub at the Rose & Crown? The last time I was in there, it looked as if they didn't give a damn about anything!
It works for me!!!
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Belle
Cast Member
Posts: 319
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 03:50 PM
quote:
Crank wrote:
Many arguments are "have your cake and eat it too". "We want to be protected but we don't want war." "We want to feel secure but this airport thing is outrageous."
Can it be both ways?
No, the United States is not perfect, far from it.
To where do y'all think we should move?
I prefer to stay right here. Yup, the US is far from perfect, but if we choose to ignore what is stirring up abroad, it will land in our backyard - AGAIN. We chose to remain "neutral" through most of WWII, we got Pearl Harbor. We chose to ignore AlQueda and other radicals seething with hatred for us, we got the USS Cole and 9/11. What's it gonna take folks? Do they have to nuke us first before we react or say ok, now we can fight back? I think it is time for a proactive approach to this festering situation.
{hugs}
Belle
The red cowboy hat chick 
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 04:01 PM
What's it gonna take folks? Do they have to nuke us first before we react or say ok, now we can fight back? I think it is time for a proactive approach to this festering situation.
{hugs}
Belle
[/quote]
That's pretty much my position also. I think those that are condemning us now will thank us later.
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 04:26 PM
I really hate to add more to this already bulging thread but I have a question.
There are those (here and abroad) that think Powell, Bush etal are lying and making these things up.
On one side of the fence we have Saddam Hussein. It's been proven that he is in default of the first and second resolutions. He has continued to mislead the UNSCOM inspectors time and again.
On the other side we have Bush and Powell. Now, keeping in mind how often the GOP and Dems fight, don't you think that somebody *ANYBODY* would jump up and say "BU****IT!"?
I have yet to see anybody interviewed by either CNN or Fox that disagrees with Powell's interpretations.
Why would anybody in their right mind choose to believe in Saddam instead of Powell?
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 05:38 PM
I have yet to see anybody interviewed by either CNN or Fox that disagrees with Powell's interpretations.
Why would anybody in their right mind choose to believe in Saddam instead of Powell?
[/quote]
A few of the things that I have heard around this little town of mine is that they think Saddam has some things but since they don't think they can reach us, it should not concern us.
So what if he has some weapons, so do we.
Wait until he does something to us.
The evidence wasn't convincing enough.
I'm not so worried about the missles here but it does affect some of our allies over there. Plus I'm fearful of what he will do to carry some of these weapons where they will do direct damage to us.
He has shown that he uses weapons and biological chemicals on his own people. The UN has said (Blix) that he has not complied but yet people want to give Saddam more time. How many years now??? 10 or more since he was suppose to comply. Yet in that time he has built the new longer range missle launchers. He's not complying, he's trying to play a game and people have caught on. Bush Sr should have finished it, Clinton should have done something when the inspectors left before. I think he's had enough time.
I personally don't want to wait to see if he does something and I honestly don't believe it's an if but a WHEN. He doesn't spend that kind of money building new launchers for nothing. He has a plan.
The evidence? I believe as Powell and other military advisers have said....they can't show the people any more than what they already have shown us. We can't divulge our spying activities to the world. High ranking military officials are in on all of this, they know what's going on. They are also advising the president and Powell.
I think Saddam is going to do another blow job on Blix this weekend and it will be another few months of Saddam playing cat and mouse with his weapons. Isn't it odd how those bunkers were there minutes before the UN inspectors arrive but gone when they get there? If nothing was there, why transfer the stuff? What was the stuff they took away? Common sense would say that it's stuff they didn't want the UN inspectors to see.
As they said on the news, the mission of the inspectors is not to play cat and mouse and do the searching, the mission is for Saddam to point out directly what he claimed and how and when it was disposed. He hasn't done that. He had all that anthrax and ? forgot the name (nerve agents?), but guess what? He isn't telling where it is, if it was disposed but more of.....can you find it??? It was documented he had it.
I believe it was Africa (or S Africa?) that went through this and they went through all the items, documented how and when it was disposed and the UN verified it. That's what the inspectors are suppose to be doing, not this hide and seek game.
I can almost guarantee you that when or if this war starts, he will find a way to unleash these nerve agents that he won't show the inspectors how he disposed of them.
Sorry I'm in a horrible mood about this. A very good friend that I had gotten very close to was deployed the other day. He will probably be one of the first ones in and I'm very nervous right now.
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Captain
Cast Member
Posts: 18
Registered: Nov 2002
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Posted 02-07-03 05:41 PM
I can think of 2;
Osama bin Laden
Mullah Omar
oh wait...you said in their right minds.
Nevermind.
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Common
Ground / Out Back
/ War?
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