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Common
Ground / Out Back
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 07:45 PM
There is no definitive proof that Iraq is threatening the United States. He may or may not have stockpiled weapons, but we, as a country, have not been threatened.
After much thought, I'm wondering why the neighboring countries haven't been to the UN asking for help? If the US were having these same problems with Canada or Mexico, (chemical or nuclear weapons) you can bet we'd be there at the UN telling them that Canada or Mexico had better knock it off or we're going to blow them to kingdom come.
OH...on a lighter note, thanks Crank and Coastal for the lovely live graphic at the bottom of the screen. I LOVE knowing what the temp is in Disney World at this very moment and salivate at the thought of y'all being very jealous of me a week from now. 
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 07:49 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
OH...on a lighter note, thanks Crank and Coastal for the lovely live graphic at the bottom of the screen. I LOVE knowing what the temp is in Disney World at this very moment and salivate at the thought of y'all being very jealous of me a week from now.
Too late! I'm already jealous! 
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 07:55 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
Actually, I liked France's response. Thankfully most of the UN is urging resolution in a peaceful manner if possible.
The United States is only ONE of the countries occupying this planet. We are not the ONLY country and it would behoove us to remember that during these stressful times.
How long are we suppose to wait? It's been years since he was suppose to destroy this stuff and years later he is hiding it minutes before the inspectors show up?
If one listens to the military other than the politicians, they were saying that they could only show bits and pieces. If they show the more detailed items, you'd be showing the world the capabilities the US does have in spying.
I'm not for war but it's not wise to allow Saddam to continue on the route he is going. In a few years everyone will be saying "we should have went in and got him" when nuclear bombs are going off and anthrax is flown overhead.
That's what he is making.
Some surrounding countries are supporting the US.
[Edited by Dab]
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 08:01 PM
quote:
Ajax wrote:
Yeah, I'll go along with 'full and unfetered compliance with resolution 1441', including U2 overflights. And the first time he balked, I'd take out a half dozen of his 'Palaces'. And not just lob in a Tomahawk, I'd obliterate them. Because that's all he understands. He'a a very bad man.
And how many years now has he gone against what the UN has asked? Why did the inspectors leave the first time around?
Odds are, Saddam is not going to comply this time either but continue making more. Wonder why he built a longer range missle site lately?
edited to correct my spelling
[Edited by Dab]
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 08:08 PM
As for DH, in his own words, "this is my job, this is what I do." As his wife, my job is to support him and have a place for him to come home to.
*sigh*
I think I need to take the kids to DL.
[/quote]
Hey, I didn't know that was you Priscilla! I'm iffy on all of this but paying more attention to what's being said on the military side vs the politician/news report sides.
Best to your husband and Annies.
[Edited by Dab]
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 08:13 PM
OK, let's say Saddam has lots of weapons of mass destruction. Am I the only one wondering why he hasn't used them yet? I keep hearing all this talk about how he's had them for years and how long are we going to wait... blah blah blah....
What I wanna know is if he's THAT big a threat to the United States, he would have made his intentions known LONG before now.
He KNOWS he's under close scrutiny. He KNOWS he can do nothing while under this magnifying glass. I'm saying keep the bastard contained until he dies of natural causes or his own people assassinate him.
People seem to have forgotten about North Korea. People seem to have forgotten about Bin Ladin. I feel some "war" with Iraq will continue to keep people's eyes elsewhere so they won't realize that Bush hasn't kept his promises to the people.
The only people Bush seems to be keeping his promises to are his Texan buddies and his father.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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TomCat
Cast Member
Posts: 3
Registered: Feb 2003
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Posted 02-05-03 08:32 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
OK, let's say Saddam has lots of weapons of mass destruction. Am I the only one wondering why he hasn't used them yet? I keep hearing all this talk about how he's had them for years and how long are we going to wait... blah blah blah....
What I wanna know is if he's THAT big a threat to the United States, he would have made his intentions known LONG before now.
He KNOWS he's under close scrutiny. He KNOWS he can do nothing while under this magnifying glass. I'm saying keep the bastard contained until he dies of natural causes or his own people assassinate him.
The only people Bush seems to be keeping his promises to are his Texan buddies and his father.
He's been under such close scrutiny that the inspectors left and he's built a brand new longer range missle launcher? (is that how you spell launcher? doesn't look right)
One may say oh to the years but that is a huge fact that we can't say oh I've heard it all before. You don't go building longer missle launchers if you aren't developing missles to go along with it.
I think we need to wait and find out what Blix says on the 14th. He's already said that Iraq was not adhering to the UN resolutions of U2 and scientist interviews. If Iraq doesn't adhere, what in the heck good is the UN then? It's like telling a child no but letting them do what they want anyway with no consequences. Why the US? Wish it wasn't us but we do have one of the strongest forces. I bet after the 14th Canada and France will be right along with us but that's just my guess.
All of this is just my opinion and means absolutely nothing.
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 08:36 PM
quote:
TomCat wrote:
He's been under such close scrutiny that the inspectors left and he's built a brand new longer range missle launcher? (is that how you spell launcher? doesn't look right)
One may say oh to the years but that is a huge fact that we can't say oh I've heard it all before. You don't go building longer missle launchers if you aren't developing missles to go along with it.
I think we need to wait and find out what Blix says on the 14th. He's already said that Iraq was not adhering to the UN resolutions of U2 and scientist interviews. If Iraq doesn't adhere, what in the heck good is the UN then? It's like telling a child no but letting them do what they want anyway with no consequences. Why the US? Wish it wasn't us but we do have one of the strongest forces. I bet after the 14th Canada and France will be right along with us but that's just my guess.
All of this is just my opinion and means absolutely nothing.
Do you mean Germany and France? Or China and France?
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 08:36 PM
Okay---I did some researching to brush...up....my..."shakespeare" (guess which musical tape I watched today)
WWI--very strong anti-war sentiment at the time and did NOT want to be involved until the Germans sunk an American civilian ship. It paved the way for America's entry in the Great war.
WWII--another round of VERY strong anti-war sentiments because the fathers who fought in WWI did not want their sons go though the horrors of chemical warfare and watch their friends die in the battle. Pearl Harbor got bombed and America came in.
Korea and Vietnam are somewhat of a engima. We weren't attacked but there was a Cold War going on and the communist were "taking over the world."
There were several other "tiffs" but nothing much.
Now--bear with me on this:
My good friend--a Saudi married to a loudmouth--meant in a good day-- e-mailed me today and pointed out something really interesting:
She adores her country and its unique beauty and culture but doesn't like the people running the country especially Wahhabi--extreme, extreme Islamic group and they are suspected of sponoring terrorism-- She said that America needs to KICK Saudi Arabia to the curb because they are the largest financier of Al Queda---nine men involved in 9/11 bombings were all Saudis and Binny the Ninny is Saudi too--in order to get to the bottom of this instead of tip-toeing around the Saudis
Her question is this: If we take out Saddam, then what about Saudi Arabia? Will they continue to finance the terrorist network?
And then she even gave me something else to think about:
How come America continue to have a *friendly* relationship with Saudi Arabia in spite of 9-11 attacks? In her opinion, it is aiding and abetting America's 9-11 attackers and ignoring Saudi Arabia's human rights violation on women. She would love to go back but she is not willing to be treated as second class citizen so she waits and hopes for the best.
What do YOU think?
[Edited by TrpltJanie]
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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TomCat
Cast Member
Posts: 3
Registered: Feb 2003
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Posted 02-05-03 08:47 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
Do you mean Germany and France? Or China and France?
No Canada and France. Canada is on the fence right now but according to their ambassador they will probably agree at the UN come the 14th. Germany will probably never agree to it.
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tomato
Cast Member
Posts: 14
Registered: Dec 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 08:49 PM
quote:
TrpltJanie wrote:
Okay---I did some researching to brush...up....my..."shakespeare" (guess which musical tape I watched today)
WWI--very strong anti-war sentiment at the time and did NOT want to be involved until the Germans sunk an American civilian ship. It paved the way for America's entry in the Great war.
WWII--another round of VERY strong anti-war sentiments because the fathers who fought in WWI did not want their sons go though the horrors of chemical warfare and watch their friends die in the battle. Pearl Harbor got bombed and America came in.
Korea and Vietnam are somewhat of a engima. We weren't attacked but there was a Cold War going on and the communist were "taking over the world."
There were several other "tiffs" but nothing much.
Now--bear with me on this:
My good friend--a Saudi married to a loudmouth--meant in a good day-- e-mailed me today and pointed out something really interesting:
She adores her country and its unique beauty and culture but doesn't like the people running the country especially Wahhabi--extreme, extreme Islamic group and they are suspected of sponoring terrorism-- She said that America needs to KICK Saudi Arabia to the curb because they are the largest financier of Al Queda---nine men involved in 9/11 bombings were all Saudis and Binny the Ninny is Saudi too--in order to get to the bottom of this instead of tip-toeing around the Saudis
Her question is this: If we take out Saddam, then what about Saudi Arabia? Will they continue to finance the terrorist network?
And then she even gave me something else to think about:
How come America continue to have a *friendly* relationship with Saudi Arabia in spite of 9-11 attacks? In her opinion, it is aiding and abetting America's 9-11 attackers and ignoring Saudi Arabia's human rights violation on women. She would love to go back but she is not willing to be treated as second class citizen so she waits and hopes for the best.
What do YOU think?
[Edited by TrpltJanie]
I think the a**kicking Iraq is about to get is going to be a serious wakeup call for the "House of Saud". I think we should all be hoping and praying the Saddam is removed by his own people before any more blood is shed on either side.
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TomCat
Cast Member
Posts: 3
Registered: Feb 2003
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Posted 02-05-03 08:50 PM
How come America continue to have a *friendly* relationship with Saudi Arabia in spite of 9-11 attacks? In her opinion, it is aiding and abetting America's 9-11 attackers and ignoring Saudi Arabia's human rights violation on women. She would love to go back but she is not willing to be treated as second class citizen so she waits and hopes for the best.
What do YOU think?
[Edited by TrpltJanie]
[/quote]
I think we need the airspace and the bases.
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 08:53 PM
Here's a wierd one for the day:
I went to the AOL boards to read the messages on what people thought of the speeches today and here's this girl that posts:
"I think Powell could have gotten that vile of anthrax anywhere. I bet he didn't get it in Iraq."
The girl honestly thought Powell was holding up a real vile of anthrax from Iraq.
People are attempting to explain to her (mostly not in a good way) that it was for illustration only and didn't really contain anthrax.
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Belle
Cast Member
Posts: 319
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 09:06 PM
OK, I have had a few minutes to step back and take a breath. Upfront I am going to say - I HATE politics... debating it, discussing it, living it (I was a Poli Sci major and am now working in the field). So with that said -
#1) For those still harping about the election, Bush is in office legally and legitimately according to the laws of the United States. He is my President and the leader of my country. If you don't like the law, lobby to change it for the future - put up or shut up.
#2) As far as the US being a the biggest human rights violator - WRONG. When discussing events of decades ago in comparison to events of today, it really is apples to oranges...
Let's look at our involvement in Afghanistan. Would we have gone in there had Bin Laden not attacked WTC and the Pentagon? Most likely not. However, he did and we did. Our "flattening," so-to-speak, of that country liberated hundreds of thousands of Afghan people from oppression and terror. We lost a great number of souls on 9/11, but their tragedy resulted in a new life for so many more across the globe. It is nowhere near perfect, but Afghan women can now go to school again and hopefully will no longer have to fear being kidnapped, enslaved, raped and murdered at random just for their gender.
Why haven't we gotten to Saudi Arabia yet? Well, maybe we just need to take on one giant Arab at a time. It also helps to have some cooperation in the areas that we are focusing on - have you ever heard the term "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer?" I certainly don't think the US and Saudis are happy hour buddies, but sometimes you have to use certain means to get the desired end. I have no doubt that covert ops are seeking Bin Laden as we speak. Maybe our focus on Iraq can also serve as a ruse to Bin Laden - he will feel less pressure and may relax a little....then we can find him easier. I believe Mayor Juliani was right on about returning the Saudi Prince's "donation" to the WTC fund when he thought strings may be attached. It goes to show there are politicians out there who are very aware of what is going on and are not willing to be a part of it.
Well, anyway, that's my 2 cents for now. I'm sure
there will be more to come. Sorry if I happen to come
off a little insensed about this whole thing, but
it has been a long day and I am tired 
It makes me sad and angry when people seem to be turning
their back on their country and leader after the tragedies
that this country has faced. We may not have the right
to "police" the world, but if we don't, who else will
and how will they go about it?
{hugs}
Belle
The red cowboy hat chick
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 09:15 PM
quote:
Dab wrote:
"I think Powell could have gotten that vile of anthrax anywhere. I bet he didn't get it in Iraq."
Thank you for my second chuckle of the evening! I
needed that!
[Edited by Lunarlady]
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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VanBrujah
Cast Member
Posts: 421
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 09:31 PM
Point of Order:
To the best of my understanding, this "regime change" issue with Iraq was in place BEFORE 09/11/01.
Also, no, The Commander-In-Thief is not in office legitimately. The Supreme Court put him there, NOT the electorate.
Sorry.
VB
I wouldn't F*@k RiRi with KUH'S Di@k!
and now, name that quote:
"What the F*@k?
You mean you found out I did it?
You can't post that!
I'M TELLING!!"
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 09:59 PM
LL Asked-
quote:
OK, let's say Saddam has lots of weapons of mass destruction. Am I the only one wondering why he hasn't used them yet?
He has, in 1984 on Iranian troops, and again in 1988, against his own people. Here's a link-
http://my.net-link.net/~stahlhut/aw...al_weapons.html
He also had Scuds loaded with VX prepared to launch against Israel during Desert Storm. The 1992-93 UN inspection team found the drained warheads, which still bore plentiful traces of the agent.
Iraq was in contact with Russia during that war. After the first Scuds rained down on Tel Aviv, we sent a message through the Russians that any attack with anything other than high explosives against anyone would be cause for retaliation in kind against Baghdad.
Don't sell this guy short- if he thinks he can get away with it, he'll use his weapons. Remember when he blew the Sea Island Terminal loading spigots and spewed millions of gallons of crude into the Gulf? Or when he took hundreds of European civilians hostage and placed them around strategic facilities as human shields? Maybe you remember the rape and pillage of Kuwait by his army. Or the setting afire of 700 oil wells as he retreated out of Kuwait. And ask his sons-in-law about his ruthless nature. Two of Saddams daughters and their husbands defected to Jordan in 1996. Using left behind family members as barter, he coerced them into returning. Dad had the husbands shot within days. But that's the family way- he murdered his uncle in his ascencion to power.
He may not have the capability to throw a WMD into Baltimore, but he surely would be able to obliterate or poison large areas of the mideast, causing economic turmoil that would be in its own way nearly as destructive as a full blown war.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Mike
Cast Member
Posts: 318
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 11:25 PM
Belle,
Amen.
I completely agree with everything you said.
Bush is there completely legally and it took a court to enforce the existing legitimate laws and end the controversy and game playing. Or perhaps no one remembers that Bush won Florida even after all the legitimate votes were counted by many organizations well after the election?
It is not the first time the popular vote did not mesh with the electorate vote. If it happend in the other direction (Gore won the electorate while Bush won the popular), we'd cry the same thing (fraud!) but we'd be wrong.
What I wonder is how close to home does the terrorism have to hit before those who say we should sit back and take it change their tune ...or at least start blaming those in power for not preventing their loss? Your town? Your family?
As far as Iran direct threats to the US, they may or may not be eminent. What is real is his support of terrorism and what WMD's he has may easily be given (or already has been given) to others without a country to attack.
Somebody there is playing with a kinked slinky!
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Mike
Cast Member
Posts: 318
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 11:26 PM
Hear, Hear, Ajax!
Somebody there is playing with a kinked slinky!
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 11:45 PM
Wow! All of
you guys made very good points in a NICE way andI
do appreciate the time you guys took to explain your
point of view.
I don't like the feeling of keeping your enemies closer because it kinda makes me feel that the government condones Saudi's attitude toward us.
The New York Mayor was in the right when he refused that check from the Saudi Prince and it really pissed me off when the Saudis shook their fists at cameramen and screamed "Death to America for humilating our royalty" Gee--their people murdered thousands in 9-11 attacks and yet, we're refusing THEIR money? DUH! It is BLOOD money.
Now--can we get back to the mudslinging?
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Parker
Cast Member
Posts: 493
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 11:56 PM
I'd like to add my thoughts about Saddam Hussein by presenting this article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2002Dec29.html
Particularly this paragraph.
"A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague."
It is also my understanding that the Carter Administration trained and supplied Osama Bin Laden in the Cold War against the Soviets.
Having said that, I believe the war is necessary, if not only to correct our previous mistakes. But let's cut the shit about human rights violations, his oppression of his own people and such. It was happening and we knew it. If we really want to stop terrorism, we have to stop the countries supporting them. Including our own country.
Speak your mind, but ride a fast horse.
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Robin
Cast Member
Posts: 939
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 12:26 AM
I wish I could see the future. Then I'd know if we are right or wrong going to war. But since I can't I'll support whatever path our country ends up taking.
I've been pretty lucky, as I've known people after they've served, and those who 'almost' had to serve. I've never had to deal with the the heartbreak of watching someone I care about go off to war. Then again, if the scud missiles start flying toward Israel again, I'll be praying my sister and her family are ok. They live not far from Jerusalem.
As for us feeling the need to defend other nations in addition to ourselves, maybe it's because we are a nation of immigrants. As a people, I doubt there is a country on this planet that 'we' didn't come from.
I toss my cookies for Disney.
I wonder what inspired this new Disney T-shirt? "I'm right. You're wrong. Any Questions?"
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hnt
Cast Member
Posts: 33
Registered: Jan 2003
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Posted 02-06-03 08:28 AM
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 09:06 AM
hnt wrote-
quote:
America depends on cheap fuel and the revenue from petrol while still having the cheapest fuel in the Western world.
I love it when I read statements like this one from Europeans. They don't seem to understand that the US gets around 90% of our oil from Mexico, Venezuela, and domestic sources. Mideast oil is primarily used to fuel the economies of Western Europe and Japan, with the exception of the UK, who have their own sources in the North Sea.
What do you think will happen when Iraq sits astride the Persian Gulf with a nuclear weapon at his disposal? I'd guess that he'll use it to intimidate his neighbors. And with his history of attacking his neighbors over the last twenty years, they'll do what he wants. Riyahd is a lot closer to Baghdad than it is to Washington.
So let him go. And the next time he raises hell in the mideast,with aircraft purchased from Mirage, artillery from Bofors, and chemicals purchased from IG Farben, let's let the Brits, French & Germans take care of it. By then the euro and the pound will buy you a pack of gum.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 09:08 AM
And THAT'S why we're known as "Dirty Americans".
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 09:20 AM
Yeah, that always grinds me. The next time the Tootsies and Hutus decide to hack each other up, or a monsoon wipes out Bangladesh, or the Serbs go on another ethnic cleansing bender, let Europe come to the rescue. Hell, the Dutch, Belgians and Brits colonized Africa and the Mideast. Let them clean up the mess. We 'Dirty Americans' can sit the next one out.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 09:21 AM
Sorry, Ajax.
I just realized that you might think I was singling
you out.
I wasn't meaning
to pick on just YOU! 
I guess having a grandmother from Scotland puts things in a little bit better perspective for me. We're so accustomed to getting our way because we're the biggest and the baddest that sometimes I think we (as a country) need to be taken down a peg or two. We're acting like bullies and we're being SEEN as bullies by other nations.
It does very little to help our credibility in the UN. We can argue until we're blue in the face about how "right" we are, but until our attitudes change the rest of the world will be looking at us the way most people look at the snooty, rich, 1% top of the foodchain wealthy:
They think they can run everything because they have all the money. Let's see how well they run everything when no one else co-operates with them.
This war is going to tax our already flagging economy and I fear that a depression is at hand if George's War is actually begun.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 09:22 AM
quote:
Ajax wrote:
Yeah, that always grinds me. The next time the Tootsies and Hutus decide to hack each other up, or a monsoon wipes out Bangladesh, or the Serbs go on another ethnic cleansing bender, let Europe come to the rescue. Hell, the Dutch, Belgians and Brits colonized Africa and the Mideast. Let them clean up the mess. We 'Dirty Americans' can sit the next one out.
I absolutely agree with you 100%. Charity begins at home and we should be doing more for our citizens before we turn our resources to other countries.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 09:24 AM
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-06-03 09:39 AM
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Common
Ground / Out Back
/ War?
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