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Common
Ground / Out Back
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:00 PM
quote:
Coastalwader wrote:
The bottom line is when it comes down to who will benefit the most from protecting anybody's oil interests, it is the Federal Govt. One of the single biggest sources of revenue outside personal income tax. There is no way in hell the feds will allow that huge source of income to come under any kind of threat.
Amen to that.
I also have to say I fully agree with the Pakistan Foreign Minister. They have a lot more to lose than we do because of their proximity to Iraq. He's advising caution, but he wants Iraq to agree to allowing jets that monitor to overfly Iraq. I totally agree that THIS request MUST be met.
If the UN requests this, and Iraq declines, then I'll be in full support of the UN's actions to go to war.
The Pakistan FMs statement hasn't been transcribed yet, otherwise I'd give you a bit of that.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:03 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
Bush wants a war. He's been chomping at the bit to promote a war since last fall. I feel Colon Powell was thrown in to further promote Bush's agenda.
This is your *opinion* and duly noted.
quote:
We only have the word of a defected Iraqi that the picture showing a truck did, indeed, carry cylinders.
No, the UNSCOM inspectors note them in their investigation.
quote:
The United States would ALSO have denied access to foreigners wanting to examine our defensive capabilities. This is a no brainer.
The US is not, was not a conquered entity who agreed to this exact stipulation to cease hostilities against it. This was not a US stipulation but a UN stipulation.
quote:
When did Iraq openly admit to anything?
See "stipulation" above. This was part of the "free and unfettered access" stipulation.
quote:
Again, we only have the word of a defected Iraqi who might have an ax to grind with his ex-father-in-law. Are we going to base the loss of American lives on the word of such a man?
I don't believe these findings are the result of one interview.
It's interesting you mention "American lives". Are you willing to bet these same lives that Powell is lying?
quote:
This can be done now, but it must be done through the unanimous front of the UN.
Which was the purpose of Sec Powell's address. No?
quote:
With all the problems facing the United States at this time, we have no business policing the world.
Turn a blind eye? To what end? The problem won't go away.
quote:
That question you ask, in the framework in which it's asked, is designed to elicit a prescribed response.
Which would be...
quote:
If not now, when? Who knows? If you want an answer to the future, ask a psychic.
Pretty rhetorical, LL.
quote:
If not us, who? Who decided that we were to be the saviors of the world? We can't even manage ourselves properly, why would we be so arrogant as to think that we have any right to leglislate the rest of the world?
This could be asked about any conflict in recent history. It's not arrogance. It's ability and resolve.
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:08 PM
I want the UN to decide and declare when it's time to go to war. Period. And all the rhetoric and posturing can go hang themselves.
IMO, Powell did NOT make a concrete case. IMO, Powell used a very eloquent speech to try to sway opinions. IMO, I've very happy the UN isn't reacting emotionally.
My hopes are that the UN won't make a decision today, but will take all this information in and make an educated, intelligent and logical decision. If we are to be wiped out by chemical weapons, then we will be wiped out by chemical weapons.
I refuse to live my life in fear of what other countries may be planning. I fully trust the UN to do the right thing, whatever that right thing is, for the benefit of the world....not necessarily for the benefit of the United States.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:11 PM
We get most of our oil right out of the Western Hemisphere. Japan and the Europeans are the recipients of the lions share of Mideast production. That's why Japan footed the fuel bill for Desert Shield/Storm, and why Chirac is kissing Saddams foot. He's also pissed at Blair for cutting France out of a deal to build two new aircraft carriers for the UK.
Currently, most of our oil endeavors are concentrated on getting the Russian Oil Industry out of the 1950's and into the 21st century. The Russians have the worlds largest proven reserves, and an unquenchable thirst for dollars. We're about to buddy-up with them big time.
I think our interest in the mideast is to thin out the nuts and make the 'hood safe for decent people. Oil is a concern in the respect that if the Europeans and Japanese don't get it to fuel their economies, these economic doldrums that we're in now will slide into a worldwide depression that will make the last one look like Heavens own feast for the blessed.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Coastalwader
Cast Member
Posts: 935
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:11 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
I also have to say I fully agree with the Pakistan Foreign Minister. They have a lot more to lose than we do because of their proximity to Iraq.
That's because in my opinion they know the "smoking gun" exists and it wil be heading into all of the surrounding regions if we go to war. He won't just try to lob scuds only into Isreal like he did during the Gulf War. He found out how unaffective that is. We can shoot down all of the chemical warheads he launches, but the difference here is that the fallout won't consist of shrapnel.
It's a catch 22 from 100 different angles, but he needs to go now.
King Unca Bubba Lord DisneyTex
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:13 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
I want the UN to decide and declare when it's time to go to war. Period. And all the rhetoric and posturing can go hang themselves.
IMO, Powell did NOT make a concrete case. IMO, Powell used a very eloquent speech to try to sway opinions. IMO, I've very happy the UN isn't reacting emotionally.
My hopes are that the UN won't make a decision today, but will take all this information in and make an educated, intelligent and logical decision. If we are to be wiped out by chemical weapons, then we will be wiped out by chemical weapons.
I refuse to live my life in fear of what other countries may be planning. I fully trust the UN to do the right thing, whatever that right thing is, for the benefit of the world....not necessarily for the benefit of the United States.
And I would hope that Iraq complies, to the letter, of 1441.
Nothing to hide=nothing to lose. Plain and simple.
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:19 PM
Yeah, I'll go along with 'full and unfetered compliance with resolution 1441', including U2 overflights. And the first time he balked, I'd take out a half dozen of his 'Palaces'. And not just lob in a Tomahawk, I'd obliterate them. Because that's all he understands. He'a a very bad man.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:27 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
Bush wants a war. He's been chomping at the bit to promote a war since last fall. I feel Colon Powell was thrown in to further promote Bush's agenda.
quote:
Crank wrote:
This is your *opinion* and duly noted.
Thank you.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
We only have the word of a defected Iraqi that the picture showing a truck did, indeed, carry cylinders.
quote:
Crank wrote:
No, the UNSCOM inspectors note them in their investigation.
They've confirmed that it is, indeed, a picture of a truck. The picture did NOT give any idea of what was inside it. I saw no other photographic or writen indications provided during the speech that said the UNSCOM said Iraq is producing more and better of these cylinders.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
The United States would ALSO have denied access to foreigners wanting to examine our defensive capabilities. This is a no brainer.
quote:
Crank wrote:
The US is not, was not a conquered entity who agreed to this exact stipulation to cease hostilities against it. This was not a US stipulation but a UN stipulation.
Any country that was under constant fire like Iraq was in 1991 would probably have agreed to wearing dresses and playing the bagpipes every day for five years just to stop the bombing. An agreement extracted under torture is no agreement at all.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
When did Iraq openly admit to anything?
quote:
Crank wrote:
See "stipulation" above. This was part of the "free and unfettered access" stipulation.
See my response to the above.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
Again, we only have the word of a defected Iraqi who might have an ax to grind with his ex-father-in-law. Are we going to base the loss of American lives on the word of such a man?
quote:
Crank wrote:
I don't believe these findings are the result of one interview.
It's interesting you mention "American lives". Are you willing to bet these same lives that Powell is lying?
The American lives I'm speaking of are the men and women of our armed forces who are ordered to go fight this fight. The US government still isn't admitting that the soldiers in the war of 1991 were affected and slowly died back here in the states due to chemical weapons.
Perhaps if civilian lives were at stake, the government would step back and stop being so cavailier with human lives. The recent Columbia accident demonstrates that our population is more concerned with civilians than soldiers. But, then again, I could be wrong. Over 3,000 human lives were lost at the WTC and we are no closer to bringing THOSE killers to justice.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
This can be done now, but it must be done through the unanimous front of the UN.
quote:
Crank wrote:
Which was the purpose of Sec Powell's address. No?
No. Colon Powell's address was designed to explain to the UN why the US is going to go and "get" Sadam. I doubt at this point President Bush and the top advisor's give a rat's ass WHAT the UN thinks at this point. They want their bloody war and they're being PC about how they're going to get it.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
With all the problems facing the United States at this time, we have no business policing the world.
quote:
Crank wrote:
Turn a blind eye? To what end? The problem won't go away.
Charity begins at home. We need to fix our own problems first before we go about trying to fix everyone else's.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
That question you ask, in the framework in which it's asked, is designed to elicit a prescribed response.
quote:
Crank wrote:
Which would be...
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
If not now, when? Who knows? If you want an answer to the future, ask a psychic.
quote:
Crank wrote:
Pretty rhetorical, LL.
Yup.
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
If not us, who? Who decided that we were to be the saviors of the world? We can't even manage ourselves properly, why would we be so arrogant as to think that we have any right to leglislate the rest of the world?
quote:
Crank wrote:
This could be asked about any conflict in recent history. It's not arrogance. It's ability and resolve.
It's arrogance.
As always, that's just my opinion.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm drained.
[Edited by Lunarlady]
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Belle
Cast Member
Posts: 319
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:40 PM
I'd say I too have to agree with Crank, Coastal, and Ajax. Let's put it this way, if we go in there and Iraq has no nukes to use, then they don't have much to fight us with. The war will be over relatively quickly and hopefully Saddam will be dead. Pretty simple. (wouldn't it be nice if he were in a meeting with Bin Laden and they were both taken out? I guess that is too much to ever hope for...)
However, if they do have dirty nukes and they use them against us, well, I guess we'll all see how that turns out too. And the even sadder part would be that the US would be able to say "we told ya so" to the UN. But by then, it would be too late.
I am worried about what Iraq may have been able to come up with over the past 10 years while no one was watching them. Pretty scary - if they can torture and kill their own people without a second thought, imagine what pleasure they'd get in doing it to us? I have never been a "war-monger" but I think the middle east situation has been brewing way too long to continue to be ignored. The backing for groups like alQueda come from monsters like Hussein and Bin Laden. Maybe Iraq didn't order the attck on WTC, but I'm sure he telegraphed a congrats to Bin laden on the morning of 9/11.
I have been personally affected by this war debate too. My best friend's husband will be deployed this month to Kuwait, and our hearts are breaking for their family. They have 3 small children that are not even of school age yet. The difficulty this family will face over the coming months brings tears to my eyes. Anything I have said is not said lightly - it is said out of a heavy heart for what may lie ahead. I am sure the government knows much more than what the press is given way to, and I can only hope they are using this knowledge to make the best decisions for our people, our soldiers and our country, as well as for those around the globe.
{hugs}
Belle
The red cowboy hat chick 
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 01:40 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
As always, that's just my opinion.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm drained.
Go rest. Come back.
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 02:23 PM
I'm back. Had a nice lovely bath while watching the rest of the meeting.
A few thoughts:
4 hours is too long to be watching C-Span.
4 hours is too long to be watching ANYTHING.
I'm worried.
I'm hoping we are not witnessing the beginning of the end of the world. But if we are, I'm hoping it happens while I'm at the happiest place on earth. The only other place I'd like to die is in my family's home.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 02:36 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
I'm back. Had a nice lovely bath while watching the rest of the meeting.
A few thoughts:
4 hours is too long to be watching C-Span.
4 hours is too long to be watching ANYTHING.
I'm worried.
I'm hoping we are not witnessing the beginning of the end of the world. But if we are, I'm hoping it happens while I'm at the happiest place on earth. The only other place I'd like to die is in my family's home.
On ALL your points I heartily agree!
Like Belle, I'm not a warmonger. One of my reserve FFs is in the Middle East at this moment (he informed me via cell that he was shipping out that moment). Several family members are Army/Airforce Reserves that, too, may deploy.
I continue to hope, upon hope, that a peaceful resolution
is tendered and accepted. In my heart though, I don't
think Saddam has it in him.
Too much EGO. Go figure...
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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annie
Cast Member
Posts: 321
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 02:50 PM
What follows is, of course, my opinion.
See my avatar. Cute lil' peace bear.
I think war is a lazy answer to conflict.
I agree Saddam has to go, and the issue of how to get rid of him is really hard to deal with for someone (me) who is pro- all human life (from unborn babies to convicted murderers- it's not our place to take another human life. I do not object, however, to eating chickens.)
I don't want to see American or UN soldiers die. I don't want to see Iraqi children die. I don't want to see American civilians die. I see that empty space where the WTC was quite often and I never want to go through that again.
I don't have any answers. I'm scared of terrorists but I don't know how to stop them.
My best friend is a Lt. Col in the Marine Corp. I support her 100%. I don't agree with her boss Mr. Bush that bombing Iraq will make us any safer.
I support the UN.
I'm going to play with my son now.
annie
"Are the fires of Hell a-glowing? Is the grisly reaper mowing? Who can provide the world with the answer to these pressing questions?"
"The candy man can," Rumsfeld added grimly.
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 03:06 PM
OH...FUCK....ME
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sp...reat/index.html
That's it. I'm going shopping. Catch y'all on the flipside 'cause I'm punching out for now.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 03:12 PM
Can't we talk first? I'm from the old school....
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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AmyA
Cast Member
Posts: 104
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 03:19 PM
quote:
annie wrote:
What follows is, of course, my opinion.
See my avatar. Cute lil' peace bear.
I think war is a lazy answer to conflict.
I don't want to see American or UN soldiers die. I don't want to see Iraqi children die. I don't want to see American civilians die. I see that empty space where the WTC was quite often and I never want to go through that again.
I don't have any answers. I'm scared of terrorists but I don't know how to stop them.
My best friend is a Lt. Col in the Marine Corp. I support her 100%. I don't agree with her boss Mr. Bush that bombing Iraq will make us any safer.
I support the UN.
annie
Yeah, what Annie said. I totally agree.
I can't really objectively participate in this discussion, though. DH is in the Army.
[Edited by AmyA]
AmyA
I am a peon who has been kicked to the curb
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Ajax
Cast Member
Posts: 1032
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 03:26 PM
Bless your DH, Amy, and all our other men and women in uniform and in harms way.
I don't want this war at all, and would sacrifice a limb if the rest of the world could see life through Annies eyes and live accordingly. That'd be wonderful beyond belief.
But I firmly believe that if we don't stop these people now, we'll pay an even greater price down the road.
Did you see me at EPCOT on New Years Eve? I was wearing a yellow poncho...
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Robb
Super Moderator
Posts: 423
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 03:47 PM
Hey everyone, what's going on? I've been watching the Real World/Road Rules Challenge. Puck just got married! Anything big happen today?
running
Dad Extraordinaire
DCL Board Moderator
VISIT THE DCL BOARD TODAY!
Andy's Dad
Krispy Kreme Addict
Dog Named Walt
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Mary
Cast Member
Posts: 465
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 04:15 PM
My turn to pipe in. I agree that Saddam has to go. George Sr. should have made that happen in '91. HUGE MISTAKE. Do I think US soldiers should be sent to war? No. Black Ops, CIA whatever should be sent to get the job done. The same kind of 'soldiers' who I am sure are pursuing Bin Laden.
What have I personally done to make my opinion heard? I have relentlessly been communicating with my representatives, US Senators, state reps & senators and even my alderman to let my opinion be known. This includes all candidates in last fall's elections. I have e-mailed EVERYONE at the White House and as many of the joint chiefs as I could find have heard from me as well. Nearly every poll I have seen says that the American public does not really support this war; certainly not an overwhelming majority, just a simple majority.
I have not seen or heard any of Colin Powell's speech yet today but I seriously doubt he would change my mind. Even if the UN inspectors found direct evidence of 'weapons of mass destruction' I still feel this is the best way to rid the world of Saddam's madness.
Mary
First Mate, Good Ship Stickey Mickey and Keeper of the Ships Log
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VanBrujah
Cast Member
Posts: 421
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 04:41 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
The United States is only ONE of the countries occupying this planet. We are not the ONLY country and it would behoove us to remember that during these stressful times.
Well said.
Here's hoping more people will keep this in mind.
VB
I wouldn't F*@k RiRi with KUH'S Di@k!
and now, name that quote:
"What the F*@k?
You mean you found out I did it?
You can't post that!
I'M TELLING!!"
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mickeybar
Cast Member
Posts: 60
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 04:59 PM
I just can't be objective. DH is doubling his life insurance. We don't know where he is or what he is doing, he can't and won't tell.
As much as I want to see a Hussein-ectomy performed, do we have to do it by war?
If George decides to go forward with this, I hope he has the sense to wait until a consensus is reached with the UN. This is not the time to play cowboy, IMO.
As for DH, in his own words, "this is my job, this is what I do." As his wife, my job is to support him and have a place for him to come home to.
*sigh*
I think I need to take the kids to DL.
Priscilla
Ship's Navigator and Keeper of the Broken Compass
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VanBrujah
Cast Member
Posts: 421
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 05:07 PM
2 and a half more cents from me:
I think we can all agree that Saddam is a bad guy, yes?
However, Saddam being a bad guy does NOT justify the U.S. being committed to, what the Squatter in President Gore's House called a "regime change" in Iraq.
Suppose, say, China decides that they are committed to a "regime change" in the U.S. What do you suppose their Ambassador to the U.N. would say in his speech?
The U.S. is in posession of Weapons Of Mass Destruction. We don't even TRY to hide that. In fact, the U.S. is the ONLY nation on the planet to have actually USED Atomic Weapons on people. Ask the folks in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Oops! Can't do that, can we? Human Rights violations? We practically INVENTED them. Shall we talk about the Japanese Interment Camps during WWII? Want to discuss Human Rights Violations with some of our Black friends? Or anyone else who is a color other than white? The United States makes Saddam look like a slacker when it comes to violating Human Rights.
So, when the U.N. passes a resolution to send weapons inspectors into the U.S. to have a look around, and we tell them no, what should they do?
I already think they need to send Jimmy Carter to supervise the next election.
Seriously, though. What gives us the right to make these kind of demands?
Just who the hell do we think we are?
Just some food for thought. We're all friends here, so I think we can agree to disagree, right?
Discuss.
VB
[Edited by VanBrujah]
I wouldn't F*@k RiRi with KUH'S Di@k!
and now, name that quote:
"What the F*@k?
You mean you found out I did it?
You can't post that!
I'M TELLING!!"
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annie
Cast Member
Posts: 321
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 05:08 PM
quote:
Ajax wrote:
Bless your DH, Amy, and all our other men and women in uniform and in harms way.
I don't want this war at all, and would sacrifice a limb if the rest of the world could see life through Annies eyes and live accordingly. That'd be wonderful beyond belief.
But I firmly believe that if we don't stop these people now, we'll pay an even greater price down the road.
Yeah, why doesn't everyone see life through my eyes? Sheesh  !
I agree we have to stop them. I just have a hard time believing bombing Iraq and going to war against USA-haters is the way to do it.
Amy and Mickeybar, I really appreciate what your husbands (and you) are doing for us. I really pray that we get past all this safely, and soon.
annie
"Are the fires of Hell a-glowing? Is the grisly reaper mowing? Who can provide the world with the answer to these pressing questions?"
"The candy man can," Rumsfeld added grimly.
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 05:12 PM
quote:
annie wrote:
Amy and Mickeybar, I really appreciate what your husbands (and you) are doing for us. I really pray that we get past all this safely, and soon.
annie
Ditto...
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Francine
Super Moderator
Posts: 1309
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 05:20 PM
quote:
annie wrote:
Amy and Mickeybar, I really appreciate what your husbands (and you) are doing for us. I really pray that we get past all this safely, and soon.
annie
Ditto from me, too.
Francine
Come and visit my other home on the internet Our Laughing Place
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DWDreams
Cast Member
Posts: 161
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 05:41 PM
I have such conflicting feelings about all of this.
Let me first be clear that I am no G.W. Bush fan, in fact I don't feel he's up to the task at all. That being said, I can't say I don't support the position on Iraq, though. I'm wishy-washy about it, but in the end I will stand by whatever comes 100%.
To those that feel we need to continue diplomatic measures, I'd suggest that those measures have failed. I'd further suggest that those measures have allowed a network of hatred for our country to take deeper root and flourish uncontrolled in the middle east. Hatred is harmless until armed and equipped to act on it. Diplomacy has not lessened that hatred nor will it disarm and diffuse the potential for disaster to this country. Action can.
We allowed Al Qaeda to languish in their camps for years without action to disrupt their intent. We saw the results of their intent and hatred. I never want to visit that day again.
Peace to all people all over the world, including the Iraqui people, whose real enemy is within harboring hatred in hearts without boundaries.
I support the action because it's our only option at this point. It's not something I take lightly as it goes against my true nature, but I do recognize the realities here and the lack of options.
Blessings and prayers to our military, unity is strength for them.
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tomato
Cast Member
Posts: 14
Registered: Dec 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 05:59 PM
quote:
VanBrujah wrote:
2 and a half more cents from me:
I think we can all agree that Saddam is a bad guy, yes?
However, Saddam being a bad guy does NOT justify the U.S. being committed to, what the Squatter in President Gore's House called a "regime change" in Iraq.
Suppose, say, China decides that they are committed to a "regime change" in the U.S. What do you suppose their Ambassador to the U.N. would say in his speech?
The U.S. is in posession of Weapons Of Mass Destruction. We don't even TRY to hide that. In fact, the U.S. is the ONLY nation on the planet to have actually USED Atomic Weapons on people. Ask the folks in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Oops! Can't do that, can we? Human Rights violations? We practically INVENTED them. Shall we talk about the Japanese Interment Camps during WWII? Want to discuss Human Rights Violations with some of our Black friends? Or anyone else who is a color other than white? The United States makes Saddam look like a slacker when it comes to violating Human Rights.
So, when the U.N. passes a resolution to send weapons inspectors into the U.S. to have a look around, and we tell them no, what should they do?
I already think they need to send Jimmy Carter to supervise the next election.
Seriously, though. What gives us the right to make these kind of demands?
Just who the hell do we think we are?
Just some food for thought. We're all friends here, so I think we can agree to disagree, right?
Discuss.
VB
[Edited by VanBrujah]
Okay, so if Iraq is in material breach of every agreement they have made with the UN, then what is the point of making deals with Iraq. I understand the point of us not having the moral authority to push people around just for the fun of it. What would you propose we do in light of the evidence that has been presented by Secretary Powell?
[Edited by tomato]
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 06:26 PM
quote:
Francine wrote:
Ditto from me, too.
Francine
Ditto me three.
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 06:34 PM
quote:
VanBrujah wrote:
2 and a half more cents from me:
I think we can all agree that Saddam is a bad guy, yes?
However, Saddam being a bad guy does NOT justify the U.S. being committed to, what the Squatter in President Gore's House called a "regime change" in Iraq.
Suppose, say, China decides that they are committed to a "regime change" in the U.S. What do you suppose their Ambassador to the U.N. would say in his speech?
I would think the US would abide by the UN Charter and give it due consideration.
As of this writing there are no sanctions imposed upon it, therefore there are no violations to speak of to warrant a new regime.
quote:
The U.S. is in posession of Weapons Of Mass Destruction. We don't even TRY to hide that. In fact, the U.S. is the ONLY nation on the planet to have actually USED Atomic Weapons on people. Ask the folks in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Oops! Can't do that, can we?
This is actually a tired argument, VB. Morality and war do not mix. There is no "nice" way to fight one.
Yes, the US used "atomic" weapons in WWII. Good? Bad? It's been debated ad nauseum. Who can predict the death toll had there been no atomic weapons used? I can't. You can't. Therein lies the problem.
Until recently the US was part of, and abided by, the Proliferation Treaties. That's what was asked of the US.
quote:
Human Rights violations? We practically INVENTED them. Shall we talk about the Japanese Interment Camps during WWII? Want to discuss Human Rights Violations with some of our Black friends? Or anyone else who is a color other than white? The United States makes Saddam look like a slacker when it comes to violating Human Rights.
Sorry, VB, totally untrue. While the US is no angel, atrocities committed in the Middle East (especially against women) make the US look like Mr. Rogers. That is, if you are talking present day:
http://www.hrw.org/pubweb/Webcat-53.htm
quote:
So, when the U.N. passes a resolution to send weapons inspectors into the U.S. to have a look around, and we tell them no, what should they do?
This is a tough one. Although I think the UN has a pretty fair idea of US stockpiles (or they can lookup "Janes") I doubt they would impose such a resolution.
I would like to think that diplomacy would have intercepted such unrest before it got that far.
quote:
I already think they need to send Jimmy Carter to supervise the next election.
Especially in Florida!
quote:
Seriously, though. What gives us the right to make these kind of demands?
We didn't. The United Nations did. This exactly what the UN is for. The US has actually showed restraint thus far in dealing with Iraq. No bombs have dropped, let's not forget that.
quote:
Just who the hell do we think we are?
We are a Nation wounded by the WTC tragedy and not wanting it repeated.
quote:
Just some food for thought. We're all friends here, so I think we can agree to disagree, right?
Works for me!
Discuss.
Edited to fix my diction.
[Edited by Crank]
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Belle
Cast Member
Posts: 319
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-05-03 07:00 PM
quote:
Crank wrote:
We are a Nation wounded by the WTC tragedy and not wanting it repeated.
Exactly - fool us once, shame on you... fool us twice, shame on us. I don't want there to be another catastrophic event before people decide that "well, yeah, maybe we should do somethin' about that darn middle east." Or maybe we should keep waving peace signs at the suicidal militants hoping they will have a change of heart - NOT! They are too busy strapping bombs to their bodies, burning our flag and stuffed representations of G.W.Bush, and mapping out our favorite landmarks as prime targets to fly planes into to even notice our peaceloving efforts. But, that is just my opinion...
{hugs}
Belle
The red cowboy hat chick
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