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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-01-03 06:10 PM
Sorry but I had to move it AWAY from the thread that post was in:
quote:
mickeybar wrote:
(snip)
As for the Iraqis saying this is God's punishment....phffffft!
Just wait till it rains smart bombs...You'll wish you had Moses!
Add insensitivity to their repertoire.
(No, I'm not militant, but they just pushed a button with that statement, and the way things are going, and the lack of information from my dh who is deployed, I know it's just a matter of time...)
Mickey....please remember that SADDAM's henchmen said that NOT the common people of Iraq. One of my closest friends is from Iraq and she CERTAINLY doesn't feel that way and she loathes "That Hussy Idiot with a very tiny brain that resides between his two hairy legs." Yes, that is what she said!
If the people are like my friend then I would LOVE to get to know them because my friend is one of the most gentlest people on God's green earth and an amazing cook especially at Christmastime!
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Francine
Super Moderator
Posts: 1309
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-01-03 06:25 PM
Let me add my thoughts in this thread, too.
Mickeybar, your dh is a brave man. Please, thank him for me. I pray, that through the Grace of God, this war will not happen.
I live near several reserve bases, and not a day goes by that I am not reminded of the numbers who have been deployed. In fact, the local city's fire department is taking a big hit, because so many firefighters are reservists.
Gosh, you know, I am so filled with sadness today.
Francine
Come and visit my other home on the internet Our Laughing Place
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-01-03 06:31 PM
quote:
Francine wrote:
Let me add my thoughts in this thread, too.
Mickeybar, your dh is a brave man. Please, thank him for me. I pray, that through the Grace of God, this war will not happen.
Francine
She brought up a very good point and do thank him for me also.
Thank you Francine for making me stop and think about what is really going on and I also pray that this war will NOT happen.
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Robey
Cast Member
Posts: 1023
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-01-03 09:16 PM
Amen.
I always wondered why somebody didn't do something about that. Then I realized I was somebody. --Lily Tomlin
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mickeybar
Cast Member
Posts: 60
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-01-03 09:58 PM
I didn't mean to offend anyone, I guess I typed and hit enter before my brain kicked in.
I'd love to meet your friend, too, Janie. I know it's not the "average" person just like I don't want a war, but our president seems hell bent on one.
I think I need to lie down and have some chocolate...
Priscilla
Ship's Navigator and Keeper of the Broken Compass
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Francine
Super Moderator
Posts: 1309
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-01-03 10:02 PM
Here, mickeybar, you can have the key to the Royal Chocolate Pantry. Help yourself to whatever you want. Your feelings are understandable, especially today.
Francine
Come and visit my other home on the internet Our Laughing Place
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Dab
Cast Member
Posts: 536
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-01-03 10:55 PM
I know it's not the "average" person just like I don't want a war, but our president seems hell bent on one.
[/quote]
I would say soon as things are moving out on the base here. When I was at the BX today, I saw the planes lined up on the side of the runway again which is unusual for them.
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 01:38 AM
quote:
mickeybar wrote:
I didn't mean to offend anyone, I guess I typed and hit enter before my brain kicked in.
I'd love to meet your friend, too, Janie. I know it's not the "average" person just like I don't want a war, but our president seems hell bent on one.
I think I need to lie down and have some chocolate...
Don't worry, you didn't offend me at all because I know where you're coming from.
Sooooooo want me eat the chocolate leftovers if you're
too full??? 
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 02:01 PM
Speaking of the war, I had a thought last night as I lay awake contemplating the Columbia disaster. Please bear with me here, I'm not trying to minimize the loss of human life in any way, shape or form but:
A little over a week ago, a US Army helicopter crash took the lives of, I think, eight soldiers yet it barely ranked a second page blurb in the newspaper.
My question for discussion:
Was their mission any less noble?
I'd really like to hear your thoughts...
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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Lunarlady
Cast Member
Posts: 1629
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 02:32 PM
quote:
Crank wrote:
I'm not trying to minimize the loss of human life in any way, shape or form but:
A little over a week ago, a US Army helicopter crash took the lives of, I think, eight soldiers yet it barely ranked a second page blurb in the newspaper.
My question for discussion:
Was their mission any less noble?
I'd really like to hear your thoughts...
Thank you Crank for breaking the ice on this one. I didn't want to be the first to say anything.
What what happened to the Columbia and it's crew was tragic. Seven people lost their lives, just as those eight soldiers lost their lives. Many families of the Columbia crew were impacted, just as many families of that helicopter crash were impacted. Yet when those helicopter men died, we didn't have 24 hour coverage.
I'm at the point of overkill now. I haven't watched the news since late yesterday afternoon and all I care about now are two things:
1). What happened?
2). Is it going to be fixed so it doesn't happen again?
Life goes on. Tragic things happen every day. True, not everyone goes out in a ball of fire, but I'm not going to "mourn" the loss because (frankly) I didn't personally know any of the Columbia crew. Getting all melodramatic and waving a flag around while tears stream down my face just isn't in my nature.
I'll probably be torn asunder for this one, but I feel that all the coverage of the Columbia accident cheapens the deaths of those men who were killed in the helicopter accidents. In fact, it cheapens the deaths of ALL Military citizens who are killed in the line of duty.
As always, JMO.
A whole week of peaceful bliss, beginning with a giggle
and ending with a kiss. |
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mickeybar
Cast Member
Posts: 60
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 04:15 PM
MHO is that the military people are given less press because the possibility of dying is pretty much in their job descriptions, while people don't think it is in the job descriptions of the astronauts, although I can't imagine being hurtled through the air at 12K mph is any less dangerous.
Janie, you can have the rest of the chocolates, just give me back the key, if I don't get it back to Francine, I'm going to have to walk the plank!!
Priscilla
Ship's Navigator and Keeper of the Broken Compass
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Coastalwader
Cast Member
Posts: 935
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 04:22 PM
Very interesting observation.
As far as the shuttle goes, it's going to be big news for a lot of different reasons. If nothing else, the debris field and the number of people living among it will keep it front and center.
In the coming days you'll see congress screaming and yelling about "why" and not once looking at how they have decimated NASA's budget. This will go on for a month or so and it will recieve lots of coverage. We move from the tragedy on to the politics. This can and will be politicized big time. Just the fact that so many more people are affected by it will mean more politicians will want to capitilize on it.
It's rare when anything involving accidental military deaths are politicized. Hell, look what happens when the military is actually targeted, like the terrorist attack on the Cole. 17 American soldiers were killed, but yet the majority of the country would have never supported an all out strike on Al Qaeda. Not only was it not enough lives lost, they were justmembers of the military. Even if it had been civilians, I doubt you would have seen enough support. I think a lot of people truly feel that way.
We can always deal with it later. Hell, we are fat, dumb, and happy....why rock the apple cart?
King Unca Bubba Lord DisneyTex
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TrpltJanie
Cast Member
Posts: 1661
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 05:09 PM
quote:
mickeybar wrote:
MHO is that the military people are given less press because the possibility of dying is pretty much in their job descriptions, while people don't think it is in the job descriptions of the astronauts, although I can't imagine being hurtled through the air at 12K mph is any less dangerous.
Janie, you can have the rest of the chocolates, just give me back the key, if I don't get it back to Francine, I'm going to have to walk the plank!!
What key?? I thought you had it!
Back to the serious side of the thread, I totally agree with you on the fact that military get less press when it come to things like that. I've had family members fight in the Gulf War and then come home so disillusioned because they were constantly asked "Why didn't you finish the job of taking out Saddam?" They were told to pull out by the "bigwigs" so DUH! The soldiers go above and BEYOND the call of their duties and I admire them for that.
I've been sent over to V.A. hospital to draw blood samples from Gulf war soldiers suffering from various symptoms that completely baffled the doctors there and they asked us to run toxicology analysis to see if WE could spot anything that they missed and got an opportunity to meet a captain who was so sick but had the energy to crack jokes constantly. He loved to tell me dirty jokes and watch me blush right red! I loved their abilities to laugh over tough things.
I salute the military, retired or active, for putting their lives on line. The soldiers in the Gulf will be in my prayers so that they can come back and hug their loved ones again.
Mickeybar (sighing)--you lost the key....did you?
Janie
The Curb Kicker
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Francine
Super Moderator
Posts: 1309
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 07:40 PM
There are two different emotional reactions to consider when there is a tragedy of this nature.
One is the affect on me personally. That affect can be personal, as in the loss of someone I know and love, or it can be empathetic, where I emotionally feel the loss, even thought I did not personally know the person who died.
I can honestly tell you that when I read about loss of life, from the car accident, to the Columbia, I feel a loss. I feel a sense of sorrow. It may be fleeting, and cause a reaction of a quick prayer. Or, it may last a while, and touch my heart.
The Columbia has reached into my heart, and grabbed hold. From the emotion of the loss, the sorrow so many people feel who knew these astronauts, to the elation of knowing in my heart that it was truly a miracle that no on on the ground was hurt by falling debris. Yes, that is my silver lining.
The other emotional reaction is the public one. A tragedy that has an affect on a large group of people tends to pull people together. Let's face it, the amount of area that debris from the Columbia has fallen is immense. Many, many people, tonight, have looked at some of that debris, knowing where it came from. It is history, playing out in their backyards.
When so many people are affected, you start to see public displays of grief. It's news because the public wants it to be. They want to share the grief, and go through it, and heal.
And, lastly, I want to add this. Let's not forget the astronauts and cosmonaut still on the space station. They are, I am sure, very affected by all of this.
And, you know what Crank? I bet there were lots of people like you, having the same kind of thoughts. I actually did. I believe we take for granted those who choose to serve our country.
Now, who the heck left the key to the Royal Chocolate Pantry in the lock?
Francine
Come and visit my other home on the internet Our Laughing Place
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Tigerlily
Cast Member
Posts: 151
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-02-03 09:34 PM
There are only a handful of astronauts worldwide and now there are 7 fewer than there were the day before yesterday. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of military troops. Not just anyone can be an astronaut. These people are the best and the brightest--PhDs, high ranking military officers, MDs, etc. They have to pass rigorous tests just to get into the program, and then they have no guarantee they'll ever fly. If they're lucky enough to be chosen to fly, they train for years for that one mission. By their very nature and exclusivity they are public figures and higher profile than the average soldier or sailor. I think we can be generous enough to allow them a little extra newstime when they are blown to bits at 12K mph, which is not exactly a commonplace way to die; even when in service to one's country. None of this is meant to belittle or diminish the importance of our brave troops who are about to head into a very nasty situation from which many of them won't be coming back. This is only meant to point out why the Columbia crew is getting so much airtime and why a helicopter crew on a routine mission does not. Unfortunately, troops are lost in battle every day, but the Space Shuttle doesn't disintegrate upon re-entry every day in full view of the people below it. It's newsworthy now and it will be for some time to come.
We wants the redhead!!
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Crank
Administrator
Posts: 1957
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-03-03 12:29 PM
quote:
Tigerlily wrote:
There are only a handful of astronauts worldwide and now there are 7 fewer than there were the day before yesterday. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of military troops. Not just anyone can be an astronaut. These people are the best and the brightest--PhDs, high ranking military officers, MDs, etc. They have to pass rigorous tests just to get into the program, and then they have no guarantee they'll ever fly. If they're lucky enough to be chosen to fly, they train for years for that one mission. By their very nature and exclusivity they are public figures and higher profile than the average soldier or sailor. I think we can be generous enough to allow them a little extra newstime when they are blown to bits at 12K mph, which is not exactly a commonplace way to die; even when in service to one's country. None of this is meant to belittle or diminish the importance of our brave troops who are about to head into a very nasty situation from which many of them won't be coming back. This is only meant to point out why the Columbia crew is getting so much airtime and why a helicopter crew on a routine mission does not. Unfortunately, troops are lost in battle every day, but the Space Shuttle doesn't disintegrate upon re-entry every day in full view of the people below it. It's newsworthy now and it will be for some time to come.
Hmmm. Thanks Tigerlily, food for thought.
Perhaps, maybe, the Astronauts are being mourned as "Pioneers" which, of course, they were.
I like persons better than principles, and I like persons with no principles better than anything else in the world.
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray, 1891
BOYCOTT FRENCH TOAST, GERMAN SAUSAGE AND BELGIAN CHOCOLATES
Crank-->
All Content is © the Poster and is to be considered Intellectual Property. All Rights Reserved. Though Brilliant, Breathtaking and Extrememly Well Written the Content contained herein is Opinion and Opinion only.
ib4cruzn at charter dot net
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DWDreams
Cast Member
Posts: 161
Registered: Sep 2002
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Posted 02-04-03 10:24 PM
quote:
Lunarlady wrote:
Thank you Crank for breaking the ice on this one. I didn't want to be the first to say anything.
What what happened to the Columbia and it's crew was tragic. Seven people lost their lives, just as those eight soldiers lost their lives. Many families of the Columbia crew were impacted, just as many families of that helicopter crash were impacted. Yet when those helicopter men died, we didn't have 24 hour coverage.
I'm at the point of overkill now. I haven't watched the news since late yesterday afternoon and all I care about now are two things:
1). What happened?
2). Is it going to be fixed so it doesn't happen again?
Life goes on. Tragic things happen every day. True, not everyone goes out in a ball of fire, but I'm not going to "mourn" the loss because (frankly) I didn't personally know any of the Columbia crew. Getting all melodramatic and waving a flag around while tears stream down my face just isn't in my nature.
I'll probably be torn asunder for this one, but I feel that all the coverage of the Columbia accident cheapens the deaths of those men who were killed in the helicopter accidents. In fact, it cheapens the deaths of ALL Military citizens who are killed in the line of duty.
As always, JMO.
Oh, I know I am stepping into this one late, but I have to agree. I said this to my husband just yesterday. As tragic as this is, the crew of Columbia knowingly went forward despite the risks. It's sad and horrible and certainly noble, but no less noble than many others that risk their lives every day performing their respective professions, particularly those in the military who are so very important to us all right now.
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Robin
Cast Member
Posts: 939
Registered: Aug 2002
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Posted 02-04-03 11:07 PM
Well put Tigerlily.
I think part of the difference is also symbolism. When soldiers go off to war it's a solemn occassion. We know the risks.
Space flight is different. It's a symbol of hope and the future. I'm still amazed by it. As a kid I hated when they'd double us up in a room at school to watch a rocket take off. It seemed to be becoming 'common place'. It wasn't really until the space shuttle that I was able to appreciate it.
Years ago I had a temporary job with an agency which was part of DOD. I think it was the second shuttle landing, that I joined a few others to sit in the Commander's conference room (he was away) to watch the shuttle landing. Probably the Columbia. There was so much pride in that room. Maybe that's part of it. We have the most amazing space program in the world.
The astronauts represent the best and brightest this country has to offer, and from around the world. They are a symbol of the future and what we can achieve. Look at the racial makeup of the Columbia's crew. Not a 'mix' anyone could have imagined when the space program began. People who would have considered 'inferior' when the space program began are now recognized as the cream of the crop.
I was park hopping when I heard the news. I'd just left MGM and was waiting for the boat to Epcot when I over heard an older couple talking. They pointed out the flag in front of MGM was at half mast, and told me about the Columbia accident. I was shocked. It was sudden, unexpected. It totally took me by surprise. I caught the end music of ToD when I entered World Showcase, and found myself getting choked up. Later found myself amoung a group of strangers at the American Adventure, feeling very patriotic. Taking pictures of the WTC flag, various quotes, and finally chatting with a CM in front of a Black History Month display for one of the astronauts from the Challenger.
I don't really know why I cried a bit watching the end of RoE. Maybe it's because the astronauts and shuttle represent hope for the future. Maybe when, they died, so did a small part of our 'hopes'.
It's not about individuals and technology. It's about what they symbolize to each of us.
I toss my cookies for Disney.
I wonder what inspired this new Disney T-shirt? "I'm right. You're wrong. Any Questions?"
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Common
Ground / Out Back
/ Mickeybar--- |
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